tv Larry King Live CNN August 25, 2009 12:00am-1:00am EDT
know the words she was supposed to lip sync to her own song. >> i think using the term interesting is a stretch. that does it for "360." larry king starts now. see you tomorrow night. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >> larry: tonight, breaking michael jackson news. the coroner's preliminary finding revealed. the singer died from a drug overdose. killer levels of a powerful anesthetic were found in his body. was it murder? just released papers document the shocking chain of events and detail what his doctor did to the pop star in the hours before his death. could there be charges? plus the number one suspect in the grisly death of his wife. the man who allegedly removed her fingers and teeth, apparently kills himself. >> a man hanging from a belt from the coat rack.
that was it. death is not a pretty scene. >> larry: who was ryan jenkins? what was a guy with a history of assault doing on a reality show? next on "larry king live." good evening. our guests are randi kaye, cnn correspondent with us here in los angeles. dr. drew pinsky, host of vh1's "celebrity rehab" and author of "the mirror effect: how celebrity narcissism is seducing america." in new york, dr. dyson, anesthesiologist and clinical professor at stony brook university. in addition to the coroner's initial findings, the associated press is quoting a single now, unidentified law enforcement official as saying that the l.a. county coroner has ruled michael jackson's death a homicide. when cnn asked the coroner's office about this report, the response was no comment. the spokesman for the lapd told cnn the story did not come from
that department. so what is the story, randi? >> the story is it appears michael jackson had a real cocktail of drugs in the hours before his death. according to the search warrant and the affidavit we got today from houston, 1:30 in the morning, dr. conrad murray, his personal physician, gave him 10 milligrams of valium. he thought he was addicted to propofol, the very powerful sedative, as you know, really just supposed to be used in the hospital. he was trying to wean him off it. he gave him valium first. at 2:00 a.m., half an hour later, he gave him 2 milligrams of the antianxiety drug, ativan. at 3:00 a.m., tried to give him another sedative called versed. at 5:00 a.m., more ativan, another 2 milligrams. at 7:30 a.m., another 2 milligrams of the versed. also monitoring his oxygen levels at that time. about 10:40 a.m. according to this warrant and this affidavit, michael jackson made repeated demands, repeated requests for the propofol. he finally administered -- dr.
murray finally gave him 25 milligrams of that. he watched him for about ten minutes and left the room to use the restroom. he said he was only gone for two minutes maximum and when he came back he said michael jackson was no longer breathing. >> larry: what took so long? for the 911 call? >> exactly. here's the key thing. he said it was 11:00 a.m. when michael jackson wasn't breathing. that 911 call wasn't made until 12:20 p.m. in the hour and 20 minutes who was he talking to? the documents show he made three phone calls that lasted 47 minutes. why wasn't he calling 911 at that point? >> larry: that's not answered? >> absolutely not. >> larry: the jacksons released this statement earlier today. the jackson family has full confidence in the legal process, commends the ongoing efforts of the l.a. county coroner, l.a. district attorney and l.a. police department. the family looks forward to the day that justice can be served. is that day going to come, dr. pinsky? >> something's going to happen. that's for sure. this is a very challenging record. it looks bad for dr. murray. i actually feel bad for him.
it seems to me, i keep thinking he got himself in a situation where he was way over his head with a patient he didn't really understand that would really take a team of professionals to popperly manage. >> larry: can you guess on that time between calling? >> i cannot. that's the most bizarre part of the story. there are many bizarre things in the story. administering versed outside a hospital. bizarre. i.v. ativan, bizarre. you never give that to an addict. putting propofol on top of that slurry, what happens in the intervening hour, it's a very challenging -- >> larry: propofol expert is in new york. dr. dyson, anesthesiologist and clinical assistant professor at stony brook. have you ever heard of propofol given outside a hospital, doctor? >> larry, to be honest with you, i haven't. primarily we use it in the hospital and surgery centers for sedation and to put people to sleep before general anesthetics. propofol is not used in a labored structure for insomnia. or to put people to sleep because they have difficulty sleeping.
>> larry: what would it even be doing in a house? >> to be honest with you, larry, it shouldn't be in the house. it should only be used in hospital settings where there's trained physicians. such as anesthesia providers like myself. where there is a problem with respiratory depression or in michael jackson's case where you stop breathing, that we could further resuscitate him. >> larry: when you do it in a hospital, who else is there while that's being administered? >> i'm in a academic setting. normally there's myself. as an intending as long as an anesthesia resident. there are nurses in the room as well as surgical residents and as well as an attending surgeon. >> larry: and oxygen? >> whenever we give respiratory agents like propofol we always have a number of monitors that each patient has. to monitor their blood pressure, to monitor their heart rate, to monitor their oxygen saturation as you alluded to as well as their respiration rate. >> larry: can you determine what
happened to him between the time of the call to 911? >> they're all respiratory depressa depressants. if they're all given at one time or they're given successfully one behind another, the patient can stop breathing. >> larry: yeah. >> we know, larry, that dr. murray did try to reach michael jackson's personal assistant who was there. he yelled for kai chase, the chef. he tried to get prince jackson, his oldest son to help him call 911. >> larry: why not punch the 911 -- >> apparently there wasn't a phone in the bedroom while he still waited. why he still waited an hour and 20 minutes. he had a cell phone, call one of the security detail -- >> many cities 911 has a -- >> he failed to tell investigators when he was questioned twice that he made these other phone calls in between. >> larry: thank you, randi. landed just in time. >> i did. >> larry: one other thing. do we know for a fact or is this just one isolated report to the a.p. about homicide? >> we know that -- there's been a lot of talk there would be manslaughter charges coming. they've been looking at evidence
of manslaughter. >> larry: this is one person, right? >> this is one single source. again, the coroner's office saying no comment. lapd saying no comment. the key thing here really is we called the district attorney's office who would get the chase before any charges are filed. >> larry: what did they say? >> they said they haven't received the case. they have to first consider charged. >> larry: the coroner could have denied? >> sure. exactly. they didn't deny. >> larry: thanks, randi. you stay. we'll be back with more. it goes on and on. don't go away. on the pulse. we actually move with the economic times. we're not just sticking with the same product. so that's why, you know we've adjusted... ...a lot of the different processes we have in place such as rolling out more innovative products to really meet the needs of our customers. because what might have been good six months ago for them, might not be good now. there's a lot going on right now with helping out customers. one of the unique features that we just brought out recently was actually called add it up. our risk free cd is a very powerful tool that we have for our customers. we're refinancing their mortgages. how are you saving for the future? how do you pay your bills? my own dad uses online banking and he loves it.
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>> larry: dr. pinsky and dr. dyson remain with us. joining us from davie, florida, is dr. wek, the forensic pathologist and attorney. dr. murray's attorney, by the way, has responded to all of this. reads in part, much of what was in the search warrant affidavit is factual. however, unfortunately, much is police theory. most egregiously the timeline reported by law enforcement was not obtained through interviews with dr. murray as was implied by the affidavit. we will not comment on an anonymous law enforcement source that claims that michael jackson's death will be ruled a homicide. most of the reports by anonymous sources have been proven wrong. we will be happy to address the coroner's report when it's officially released. dr. wek, your reaction to these court documents indicating the coroner has made this preliminary report, if true? >> based upon what we have been hearing, larry, certainly there is no surprise vis-a-vis
propofol, diprivan. it remains to be seen what the toxicological analyses reveal insofar as lorazepam, ativan and trazodone and other drugs that are concerned. if all of these drugs, restoril, are also shown, this would be a classical case of acute combined drug toxicity. this is something we see to a great extent. the big difference in this case, larry, there are two of these drugs that are administered only parenterally. they cannot be taken by mouth. diprivan and versed. as the anesthesiologist pointed out quite correctly and sack succinctly these drugs are only to be administered by trained anesthesiologists, nurse anest sift. you have to have all the those things ready in case something goes wrong. >> larry: dr. pinsky wanted to ask dr. dyson something.
>> i've never heard of versed and diprivan being given simultaneously. that seems like a deadly combination. >> contrary to popular belief, we give it every day for -- >> together? >> together. whenever we see patients during a surgical procedure, they're nervous. as you can imagine, when someone has a cut on you, the first thing we do is give versed. either we give it in the holding area or a lot of times in the operating room. >> isn't -- didn't the propofol, though, with a benzodiazapine, like lorazepam, longer than the versed, that combo is not safe, right? >> in a hospital with an anesthesia provider standing there by the patient with standard monitors, we do it on a daily basis. >> larry: versed is given before they get propofol? right? >> absolutely. >> larry: to calm you down? >> commonly used with colonoscopies. you're talking to your doctor,
they give you the versed. then you wake up and it's all over and you can't believe it. >> larry: they do it with cataract surgery. dr. week, could you explain from a coroner's standpoint what the difference is between homicide and murder? >> the difference is on the death certificate, larry, the medical examiner or coroner has five choices in decreasing order of frequency of occurrence, natural, accident, suicide or undetermined. it is my opinion this is going to be signed out as a homicide because of the fact that the diprivan and the versed were used at home under the circumstances that we have been discussing. you have these drugs, the multiplicity. >> larry: it was not, dr. wek -- i do not want to be redundant. it would be homicide, not that the doctor was doing it to kill him, right? >> exactly, larry. excellent point. not with any intent. you don't have to demonstrate intent at all. you put it down as a homicide if you believe that, in this case,
as i do believe, this was gross wanton negligence. this goes beyond medical malpractice. this goes beyond the breach of normal medical care. >> larry: dr. dyson, can you imagine in your -- take me to any extreme when you would administer this in a house. >> i cannot think of one, larry. even in the hospital i do not give it to the patients unless i'm absolutely sure that i can put a breathing tube in the patient in the event they stop breathing. >> larry: because that's one of the things that could occur with this, right? >> it's a powerful drug. we know it puts you to sleep but it also shuts down your ability to breathe and decreases your blood pressure. we would never give a medicine in a controlled setting without the ability to reverse those effects. >> larry: psychologically, dr. pinsky, what do you do with a famous patient who wants something? >> that's another layer to this. you have somebody with a history of addiction. you do not expose addicts to benzodiazapines if you can avoid it. they are highly addictive
substances. this kind of power imbalance where the patient is determining what their care is going to be is an adulteration of patient/physician relationship. it's why people with power and money sometimes get not so good care. they think they need something special, when in fact the standard of care which dr. dyson has been talking about, the standard of anesthesia care is the standard of care because it's the best. we give the best care to everybody. when you start seeking out special care and you, yourself, demand special care you're going to more than likely get substandard care than good care. >> larry: dr. wek, can you try to figure out what took so long to call 911? >> no, i cannot. except i think i can surmise and infer with some degree of logic that those phone calls, which you have referred to, larry, were being made to people, what do we do now? resuscitative measures were undertaken. in fact, an antidote to benzodiazapines was administered by dr. murray. so he tried. it was too late.
the delay is another point, by the way, with regard to a homicide charge with insofar as the gross wanton negligence is concerned. >> larry: thank you. thank you dr. week as always, dr. pinsky as always. dr. dyson, thanks for your expertise. >> thanks for having me. >> larry: who do you blame for the propofol in michael jackson's body? jackson or the person who administered it? that's our blog question tonight. go to cnn.com/larryking. tell us what you think. deepak chopra told us two weeks ago michael jackson was a drug addict. we'll get his take on this news in 60 seconds. there's no way to hide it. sir, have you been drinking tonight? if you ride drunk, you will get caught... and you will get arrested. special interest groups are trying to block progress on health care reform, derailing the debate with myths and scare tactics.
desperately trying to stop you from discovering that reform won't ration care. you and your doctor will always decide the best treatment for you. tell congress not to let myths get in the way of fixing what's broken with health care. learn the facts at healthactionnow.org. >> larry: here in los angeles, mark geragos, the famed defense attorney who represented michael jackson for a time. in san diego, robin sax, former deputy d.a., los angeles county. we want to spend moments with deepak chopra who joins us on the phone. the physician and spiritual leader, longtime friend of jackson. you have spoken out on this show about your concern about jackson's drug use. what's your reaction to these facts we learn today?
>> caller: well, i'm not surprised. i think the mentioned before that once michael had told me there's something that takes you to the edge of the valley of death and then brings you back from there. at that moment i had no idea what he was talking about. i said, what the heck -- what are you really talking about? and he quickly changed the subject. now in retrospect, of course, i realize he was talking about propofol. what's really astonishing is that this kind of drug -- it's not a scheduled drug, as you know. the dea does not call it a scheduled drug because it is not something that is usually abused. the only history of abuse of propofol is amongst medical doctors and anesthesiologists. >> larry: all right. >> so the fact he was given this outside of a hospital setting definitely makes it a homicide. not that the doctor intended to kill him, as has become obvious. he lost a client. >> larry: why do you think dr. murray administered so many of
those drugs? >> he was trying to please his client who was paying him $150,000 a month. >> larry: are you surprised about any of this? >> i'm not surprised. you remember, larry, i mentioned this on the first day i came on your show that this was something that was bound to happen. i think the bigger question here is, dr. murray is the one who is going to be blamed for this because he injected the drug. from what i learned, he never prescribed this drug. i think it is incumbent upon whoever is doing the investigation to find out who are the physicians who prescribed all this stuff that was given to him? i think they're equally culpable, though in the eyes of the law dr. murray is the one who's guilty. >> larry: were you surprised it took so long to call 911? >> not really. i think he didn't know exactly what he was doing.
he was probably not an expert in the use of propofol. you know, mostly it's anesthesiologists who do this. so i think he panicked and also gave, from what i heard, an antagonist to the benzodiazapine. >> larry: thank you, deepak. we'll be seeing you again, soon. >> yeah, thanks, larry rk there are legal ramifications to the coroner's initial findings. hey, why don't we use our points from chase sapphire and take a break? we can't. sure, we can. the points don't expire... ♪ there is nothing for me... ♪ there's no travel restrictions... we could leave tomorrow. we can't use them for a vacation. you can use the points for just about anything. i know... ♪ the way you look tonight ♪ chase what matters.
moment. the attorney for katherine jackson, londell mcmillan, said this about the coroner's fundamental finding. this report reaffirms the very sad realty that there was a tragic and gross violation of duty and care for michael jackson. there is obvious legal culpability which has been the concern of michael's mother, the family and fans worldwide. mark geragos, what do you make of this? >> i don't think that's it's going to be very long before you see some criminal charges filed. i think you're going to see both criminal charges and you're going to see the medical board jump in at the same time and try to revoke licenses of more than just the person who is filed on criminally. >> larry: robin, from what you sketchily know, will you say there's a prosecution coming? >> absolutely. i agree with mark. there is a prosecution in its way. we already saw through the release of the search warrant today the theory by which they're looking at. they say the science says in the search warrant the detective involved in the case says they are pursuing a manslaughter
investigation. that's a statement from lapd signed under penalty and perjury. >> larry: mark, is it a crime, even though you're not an anesthesiologist or doctor to administer propofol? >> no. >> larry: what are you charging him with? >> you're going to say -- this is where it would become a crime. if you can say that this person did something that was legal but it was such a gross deviation from the standard of care or what you normally would do, that would supply the mental element that you need in order to commit the crime. >> larry: even though it's not a premedita premeditated murder, right, robin? >> absolutely not. just the fact you actually did it and knew, especially in this case with michael jackson. everybody in the world knew he had a drug addiction problem. especially his caring doctor would definitely be under that duty to know that as well. >> larry: all right. the fact of the late call 911, would that enter into an indictment, robin? >> oh, absolutely.
there are so many numerous consciousness of guilt factors here that we can start just from the very beginning. the refusal of dr. murray to sign the death certificate. the late call of the 911. all the phone calls to everybody else but 911. dr. murray being nowhere to be found after he was dropped off at the hospital with michael jackson. i can go on and on including the statements he made to mr. pozner on television last week. >> larry: what about mark, the prescribing physicians? >> well, i think that's one of the reasons you haven't seen anything yet and why you keep seeing all of these search warrants. they want to know -- we have said it at least a month ago, they have obviously bottles that have lot numbers. they go back to the manufacturer. they see from the manufacturer, where did that get shipped to? which pharmacy? then they go to the pharmacy, do a search warrant. >> larry: didn't they raid a pharmacy the other day? >> raided a pharmacy in l.a., one in las vegas. they've raided pharmacies all over the place. >> larry: could dr. klein be in trouble?
>> well, i think that clearly dr. klein is on the bubble here. he's somebody who's got exposure. i think that's why he's lawyered up and appropriately so. obviously the doctors, and i don't want to overstate this, just because you have trouble does not mean there are not defenses. clearly there are valid defenses and you're going to see and hear them. >> larry: robin, is a pharmacy in trouble? >> well, the pharmacy could be in trouble for administering drugs they were self-prescribed and, again, it goes against what dr. klein has already made statements about. if dr. klein was given drugs and they were prescribed to himself and the pharmacy they were talking about were the ones that gave them, there are could be problems coming. >> when you start seeing pharmacies that have $100,000 bills, a monthly bill and if they're under numerous names, yet dispensed to the same person, even though that may be a common practice in hollywood, it's not necessarily legal. you're going to see, i think,
the a.g. take action in those cases as well. >> i agree. >> larry: robin, is it -- what if the defense is, hey, this is michael jackson. i'm under a lot of pressure. is that a defense? >> not a defense. not a legal defense. it may be a sympathy factor. it may be something that may get a couple jurors to think, oh, i feel really bad for dr. murray. however, i think when you start looking at michael jackson and the sympathy for him and the untimely tragedy of his death and a death that could have been prevented by something that could not have been administered by themselves, i think that sympathy factor goes away. >> this has got to be -- i don't envy anybody who has a pick a jury in this case. we were trying to go through the -- today at the office, who would you want as a juror in this case if this case is filed and its in downtown l.a.? >> larry: who does the prosecution want? >> the prosecution is going to want people are obviously sympathetic to michael jackson. your blog question, tonight, is a question that you basically are going to want to ask.
are you somebody who blames the person who's taken the drugs or the person who's administering the drugs? that's kind of the watershed question as to whether or not somebody is sympathetic to your position or not. and i think -- >> larry: and the defense wants what? >> the defense is going to want ideally somebody who is going to say, look, the patient has got to take personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah. you're going to want almost the opposite of what you would normally -- it's very counterintuitive. >> larry: could this be a tough prosecution? i mean, hard to convince? >> i think this is going to be a tough prosecution. this is not a slam-dunk case. there are all kinds of sympathy factors. there's the michael jackson question. i do agree with mark this is a role reversal. the juror he is picking in mine is the one i would normally want. the one i would pick in this case he would want. >> larry: it's a reverse. >> it is. that's why i said it was -- we were standing on our head today in order to try to sort out who you would actually want in this. >> larry: quickly, robin, how close do you think we are to
some indictments here? >> i can't answer that question until i know. i think dr. murray they're pretty close to. i don't know that they're not going to do it all together with all the doctors at once. the l.a. county d.a.'s office is going to be careful to making sure they appear to have a thorough investigation. until the alphabet groups come back with their results i don't know that we're going to see it right away. >> larry: thank you both. very informative. mark geragos, robin sax. the man suspected in the grisly death of his wife apparently killed himself. anyone see that coming? need a lift? hey buddy, i appreciate the ride, you know. no problem. ♪ mind if i take a shortcut? yeah, sure. ♪ i knew the subaru legacy was the smart choice... what i didn't expect... was the fun. the all-new subaru legacy. feel the love.
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>> larry: this just in. senior administration official tells cnn that president obama intends to renominate ben bernanke for another four-year term as fed chairman. that just in. we report it right to you. okay. let's discuss this incredible matter that occurred last week. stuart brazell is the casting director for "megan wants a millionaire." she recruited ryan jenkins for the show. gwendolyn knew jasmine fiore, the victim, since jasmine was 11 years old. she was with us the other night. she thought of jasmine as a daughter. ryan jenkins, reality tv contestant charged in the savidge murder of his ex-wife has been found dead in a secluded motel in canada. apparent cause is suicide by hanging. we have also learned that ryan may have attempted a suicide six or seven years ago also over a woman. and in an interview this morning on the "today" show, jasmine's
mother had this to say about the man who married and then allegedly murdered her daughter. watch. >> this man was a professional con man, you know? he was -- he targeted women, i believe. he wanted to be something that he wasn't and i think he wanted to be and have what jasmine had. i mean, she was for real, you know? she earned what she had, and, you know, he was just fake. >> larry: we know gwendolyn from the other night that jasmine also called you mother or mama. what's your reaction to the suicide? >> well, i am relieved. i'm very relieved that there was a suicide and ryan's no longer on this plain. because it helps us -- the family and extended family so that we can get on with our lives. we don't have to go through a trial and all the pain that
that brings up as well. so we have a sense of relief. >> larry: stuart, before we get into questions -- >> i also have some concern -- >> larry: hold on one second. hold on, gwendolyn, i'll get back to you. the audience is thinking this -- stuart? >> yes. stuart, it's my middle name. i've gone by it since i was 4. i'm southern. southern people love the double names. it was susan stuart. i was a tom boy. i had to have my way. at the age of 4, i said call me stuart. >> larry: you, stuart, cast ryan jenkins for "megan wants a millionaire." what was the reaction before the story broke, before you learned about a suicide? >> shock, disbelief. it took me 24 hours to even process that it truly happened. i could not believe what i was seeing, that it was everywhere. just complete disbelief. then tragedy for these families. you know, when you know someone who is so closely connected, i
felt such despair for them. >> larry: what kind of contestant was he? >> ryan was the ideal contestant for these shows. you want a big personality, you want loud, you want someone that's entertaining and that's going to cause conflict in the house. that's exactly what i look for and that's what he was. >> larry: how did you come to cast him? >> the way this works is, a lot of times you travel from city to city. my first city was las vegas. you go in a team. it's two people. i was there with a co-worker. literally land in vegas two hours later. was at the venetian. took an escalator down. first person comes over, baby, baby, baby. he hit on me. i met him because he approached me. i said, well, i'm going to use this. part of what i do is i recruit talent for these shows. you literally go -- >> larry: he's trying to date you and you say to him, you want to be on a show? >> no, he's not. he was just having fun. he was -- it's las vegas. he's there to have fun with his boys. there was a big porn convention. they were there to enjoy what vegas has to offer. i happened to be a pretty face
he wanted to come and talk to. >> larry: did he go right away for being on the show? >> right away. he talked to me -- it took a couple sentences and he was down for it immediately. then started talking about how he always wanted to be a movie star and actor. he was the perfect candidate for the show. >> larry: gwendolyn, sorry i interrupted you. what were you going to add to what you said? >> i have concerns about his suicide. because my understanding is is that he hung himself but his feet were on the ground. so somehow that doesn't compute in my mind. i'm waiting to hear further evidence or further discovery of his suicide. >> larry: okay. by the way, an fbi profiler tells us about the warning signs ryan jenkins might have exhibited. why didn't anyone know this? why didn't stuart know this? that's next.
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>> larry: before we bring in candice delong, our former fbi profiler, a couple more things, stuart. you remain with us as well. did you see any hints this guy might have been violent? >> i was completely shocked he would be capable of doing this. obviously these type of people that everyone enjoys watching, he was charismatic, he was a lady's man. people were drawn to him. he ran around talking in tons of voices. i could see he could be a loose cannon. did i think he was capable of murdering his wife? absolutely not. >> larry: didn't he get
married -- >> no, the show had wrapped. he was done filming. a lot of the cast members came from vegas. that was the first city. he kind of came to hang out with them. met jasmine. married here three hours later. >> larry: did you know her? >> i did not know her. >> larry: did he text message you after he married her? >> he did. he text messaged me the next day and said i've met, you know, the love of my life. this is the woman of my dreams and just how happy he was. i would also say he was happy to marry someone from the u.s. because he was very much looking for citizenship. i think that had a big part to do with it as well. >> larry: candice, let's take a look at an excerpt from "megan wants a millionaire" featuring the interaction between megan hauserman and ryan jenkins. and get your thoughts. wauf. >> you're cute. >> is this your best date ever? >> maybe. >> maybe? >> i'll tell you at the end. >> i don't know if megan and i have had enough time together for her to actually loosen up and really get to know me. >> i feel like you're manipulating me. >> i wanted to show her a little
bit of vulnerability to maybe make her a little more comfortable with me. >> larry: all right, candice, you're a profiler. profile him. >> well from everything we've seen in addition to this little clip, these guys are master manipulators. they can control themselves in their waking environments, their working environments. they control their angers, their tempers. it's the wives and girlfriends in private that suffer from guys like this. what interests me is on the clip with megan is he said i wanted to show her a little vulnerability. wait a minute. vulnerability is a spontaneous -- you either have it or you don't. it's not something you put on the vulnerability suit. >> larry: also ryan jenkins had a past history of violence with women. he got 15 months' probation in 2007 on assault charge and apparently maybe a suicide try. what do you make of all that? >> let's talk about the assault first. probably the most reliable indicator or predictor of future
interpersonal violation is past interpersonal violence. so having a history of battery against women in his past would certainly make him a bad bet for a husband or boyfriend for the future. as for the suicide attempt, the variety of reasons people may attempt suicide, but without question the vast majority of people don't. here's a man who obviously is questioning whether he wants to be on this earth, certainly ended his life that way and thought about it before. it's an unstable guy. >> larry: gwendolyn, before you leave us, were you surprised that jasmine married someone so quickly? >> well, like i told you the other night, i didn't know that she was married to ryan and it's my understanding -- >> larry: when you learned it were you surprised? >> i learned it after her death and i was deeply surprised because she was my confidant and i was hers.
>> larry: joining stuart brazell and candice delong is ron grantski. the step father of lacey peterson. lacey's husband, scott, on death row for the 2002 murders of lacey and her unborn son, connor. for a long time ron grantski loved scott peterson. ron smith. former husband of susan smith. she is serving a life sentence for the 1994 murders of their young sons michael and alex. remember she said it was a black man that did it. david had no knowledge of anything like that. want to show you something first. tmz obtained video of jasmine poolside in las vegas. you can hear ryan commenting about his wife.
watch. >> wow. god, i love my life. and i love my wife. love you, babe. luckiest guy in the world right here. >> larry: all right, ron, you had a son-in-law that was kind of sort of smooth, didn't you? how do you react to surprise? >> it's always a shame. it's understandable that -- i don't know where these people come from. they look so nice and so -- they treat women so well and they turn out to be the devil. i don't understand that.
>> larry: david, do you have any knowledge your wife had something wrong with her? >> larry, you know, at the time nothing that was, you know, a telltale sign. i can look back now and see little things, but at the time i didn't have any clue, larry. >> larry: so the surprise is substantial, right? >> oh, very much. i mean, you know, i stood by susan for those nine days. >> i remember. >> trying to find michael and alex. i never suspected her at all. it was very shocking. >> larry: we'll have more with our complete panel right after this. announcer: cialis asks, when is it time
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motel in hope, british columbia, canada. the sadness of this all is mr. jenkins will not stand before an orange county jury for his crime. >> larry: anderson cooper will host "ac 360" at the top of the hour. what's up tonight? >> more on the michael jackson breaking news. at the top of the hour. dramatic turn in the death investigation, which is now a homicide investigation. the ap quoting a law enforcement official says the l.a. coroner is ruling michael jackson died from looeting levels of the powerful anesthetic propofol. all of the angles tonight. breaking news develops. also, extreme measures used by the cia, may have broken u.s. law, but did the cia go too far or did the tough tactics prevent another terror attack? both sides tonight in our strategy session. four years after katrina devastated new orleans, new hope is flooding into the city as we close in on the fourth anniversary.
tonight an "360" as part of a week-long series, we'll report on how the school system, once of the worst in the nation has become a magnet for innovation and reform. all that ahead at the top of the hour. >> larry: thanks, that's anderson cooper. 10:00 eastern, 7:00 p.m. let's ask each of our guests about early warnings. stuart, did you see anything in retrospect that you could have said, i should have saw something? >> i play this and replay this, so devastated for jasmine, the fiore family just to kind of go through, was there something there? and to be honest, he was like anyone else. for a show like this, you put hundreds of people on camera, come in and out of your lives. this was a different show because we were looking for a fluent gentleman, so we spent more time with them. i was with him in a social environment. he just seemed like a happy, go lucky guy. i would say he could be a loose cannon if provoked, but this? no.
>> larry: ron, did you see anything in scott peterson? >> you know, i was thinking about that today. and again i think about it a lot. but i remember about four weeks before laci was murdered. they were over at our house, they come over for dinner a lot. he was always a gentleman to sharon and to laci, he'd open the wine and pull out the chairs and wash the dishes, and, of course, it made me look bad, but i remember when they left and i'd ask sharon, i would say, what, you know, laci must be getting a little nervous getting close to connor being born. she said, no, this is scott's idea. he wanted to start getting closer. and for some reason, it just didn't ring true to me. something just, i mean, it didn't make sense. >> larry: wow. >> i always think about that. >> larry: david, you mentioned earlier about signs. what about susan smith caused you to think in retrospect, yeah, maybe?
>> in the weeks, now that i think about it, the weeks before michael and alex's death, larry, susan was going out partying a lot. she was leaving michael and alex with me or with family or other friends. she was doing a lot of partying, distancing herself from spending time with michael and alex. but at the time, i just, you know, thought it was just because we were separated and she was trying to, you know, deal with things. i mean, because up until the time she murdered michael and alex, larry, susan was a good mother up to that point. but, you know, i don't know if there was anything that anybody could really, unless it's something dramatic, can really identify that something bad's going to happen unless it's just something, like, totally out of their character. >> larry: well said. candice, is there any thread that runs through people who never seem to do anything crazy and then do something crazy? >> well, in a lot of cases, what's necessary for the person to do something outrageous and
there's never been a hint of violence is a perfect storm, a perfect storm of circumstances that leads to some kind of desperate, desperate move. and in the case of susan smith, i'd like to ask david, i've never understood why she simply didn't pick up the phone and call you and say would you take the kids, i don't want them anymore? and i'm wondering, david, do you have any idea why she didn't do that? >> i really believe because, you know, she -- it was a small town and i really think susan thought she would get away with the murder of them. >> less embarrassing. >> she didn't think she'd ever get caught. she tried to get away for it with nine days. >> larry: i'll get into it after the break. why do they kill? first this.
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>> larry: all right, candice, why, though -- we understand there they tend to be violent, they may hit people, may act a little extreme. why do they kill and in this case why do they kill themselves? >> well, they generally they kill because it's easier -- it depends. in the case that we're talking about tonight with jasmine, this was a man who had been violent in the past toward women. so there was a little bit of a prediction there, could have been made that this might happen. in terms of the suicide, oftentimes the killer doesn't think things through. he thinks he's going to get away with it. in this particular case it was identified very quickly who she was and that she had been
murdered, who the likely suspect was and then, i think, it all just came crashing down and he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison. he might have been remorseful for what he did, but usually abusers kill themselves when they've run into a situation where they can't escape what they did, not because they feel bad about what they did. >> larry: ron, do you think scott peterson was ever a suicide candidate? >> i don't. i don't think so. he has a knack, i calm him a silver-tongue devil, and the problem with him he believes everything he says is the truth, even when we all know it's a lie. so no, i don't think he could. >> larry: david, do you think susan was capable of killing herself? >> i don't really think that susan was intended to commit suicide on the night she murdered michael and alex nor afterwards. she tried to get away with that lie for nine days, larry. i really think susan was hoping she was going to get away with
it and not commit suicide. >> larry: stuart, did you like him? >> i would not say -- he wasn't exactly my cup of tea. but he was likable. you know, he used funny voices, women were drawn to him, he was the life of the party. he was likable. i would not personally choose him as a friend. >> larry: did he have a lot of money? >> he did have a lot of money, his parents have a lot of money. >> larry: father's a lawyer? >> father's an architect, real estate investor. >> larry: successful businessman? >> right. exactly. he was given ever opportunity to succeed. >> larry: but you didn't dislike him? >> i didn't dislike him, i kind of saw him for what he was. >> larry: which was? >> which was perfect for this show. loud, obnoxious, made for great tv. >> larry: shocked that he got married? >> no. because he -- he has that in him. you know, just to be very spur of the moment. he thought he was in love. they were crazy in love. >> larry: you think he might have been picked on the show?
did you ever guess he was going to be chosen? >> i thought 100%. >> larry: did you think he would be winning? >> at least the top five. he's a good-looking guy. >> larry: he didn't make it to the top five? >> he did not win the show. >> larry: oh, we haven't seen it yet? >> it's been pulled. he was in the finals. >> larry: he was in the finals. thank you all very much. we obviously have not heard the last of this. kate gosselin and kathie lee gifford. they're here tomorrow night. right now, anderson cooper and "ac 360." tonight, breaking news, preliminary word from the los angeles coroner on what killed michael jackson. the associated press is also quoting a law enforcement official who says the coroner is ruling jackson's death a homicide. death at the hand of another person. jackson's personal physician dr. conrad murray, the likely candidate is yet to be charged with anything. tonight, nearly two months the day of his death, we now know